Tuesday, May 31, 2011

altering the altar call

Be sure to wrestle with Tim's post:

No more altar calls .

--
P.S. Enjoy Ignatius's video here...if you recognize the lines "Every head bowed and every eye closed...I see that hand"

"Don't forget the assembling together.." yada yada

Don't even get me started on verses (Verse-itis is deadly) that we think mean one thing, but actually mean something different (even opposite) in context (see : I am in sin if I "avoid the appearance of evil" and of course Christians will be left behind)...

But if you want to get started on saving the famous/infamous "Don't forsake the assembling together" verse from the "shaming people into church attendance" game, do read Vincent Cheung's helpful "Not Forsaking Context":

Hebrews 10:25 must be colored by this context and message, and therefore the point is that believers must not withdraw from a local congregation due to spiritual weariness or fear of persecution. -Full article

Before posting "I'm thinking of getting a tattoo on my ass," be sure you are not logged into your wife's facebook

It started rather innocently and hysterically when Tarzan Tom mcCann posted a funny status for a lark.. thinking he was logged onto his Facebook, but was logged into his wife's account. Suffice to say it got our attention when we (and she!!) read in our feed this message under her name: "I'm thinking of getting a tattoo on my ass"

..(:

Well, some in our tribe have long teased Tarzan Tom about doing it, and many have suggested that in keeping with Tom's calling and reputation for creative missional tattos...see this one:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dJ81AALsvDg/TJVFT-mN8RI/AAAAAAAAESs/y8Lf9Iu4nfk/s1600/tomtatt.jpg

click for story

...that his inevitable tattoo on his hindquaters would have to be a pic of Jesus..

...but now I see (and you can see by the photo here...even if it is TMI...) that someone (is it you, Tom?) has actually done it!

BTW, Tarzan Tom is amazing, and has even lived past the expiration date the docs gave him.. So glad it was a false prophecy! Keep praying. And to see Tom in action in Peru, preaching about his tatts across from a brothel, here's the video. To read my favorite Peru story about Tom, see "Not only was that turbulence not normal, it was 100 times worse than I knew was possible.."

BTW, there is a rumor that another of our guitar players indeed has a tattoo in that same sacred place, but anyone checking his Facebook profile (click here, not safe for church)finds adequate evidence this is not the case.

Thanks to Hottie ("Jesus and the Beast, Part One: TATTOO")for the tip on this tatoo. It appeared at this website: Bible Support for Tattoos.

Hot-For-Jesus Former Fundie

See:

Christian Symbolism in The Matrix Revolutions by Mark Turner
-The Matrix: Regurgitated:This article obviously doesn't like the movie, but has interesting insights on theology, calling the film a "bona fide Bible epic"
The Matrix Revolutions Wiki

Godhaunted Dave Matthews: Bartender and The Maker

Thanks to Gina Messina-Dysert at Rock and Theology for the tip on this song, and video:

Dave Matthews has stated that he thinks this song, “Bartender,” is the most beautiful song he has ever written. I have to say I am inclined to agree. I sit with this song often; I am not sure there are words to accurately describe my thoughts about its beauty or its impact. So, I simply want to leave you to sit with it. This performance at Radio City Music Hall is one of my very favorite versions. Lyrics start late into the song (about 3 minutes in), but it is worth hearing the entire performance. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. - Gina Messina-Dysert

The words are below, but someone has well said that perhaps it's all said wordlessly in the "vocal"/prayer inclusio of 2:20-3:20 and 7:40-8:31 (!!) in video at bottom of page...you may want to start with the video, and then read..

[the newer version, from summer 2000]

If I go
Before I'm old
Oh, brother of mine
Please don't forget me if I go

Bartender, please
Fill my glass for me
With the wine you gave Jesus that set him free
After three days in the ground

Oh, and if I die
Before my time
Oh, sweet sister of mine
Please don't regret me if I die

Bartender, please
Fill my glass for me
With the wine you gave Jesus that set him free
After three days in the ground

Bartender, please
Fill my glass for me
With the wine you gave Jesus that set him free
After three days in the ground

I'm on bended knees, I pray
Bartender, please

When I was young, I didn't think about it
Now I just can't get it off my mind

Im on bended knees..Father, please!

If all this gold
Should steal my soul away
Oh, dear mother of mine
Please redirect me if this gold...

Bartender, you see
The wine that's drinking me
Came from the vine that strung Judas from the devils tree
Its roots deep, deep in the ground

Bartender, you see
The wine that's drinking me
Came from the vine that strung Judas from the devils tree
Its roots deep, deep in the ground
In the ground...

I'm on bended knees
Oh, Bartender, please

I'm on bended knees
Father, please!

When I was young, I didn't dream about it
Now I think about it all the time

I'm on bended knees
Oh, bartender, please
Bartender, please

oh Lord
Please
my Lord

Great full band version: Live Trax: Live full version: More lyrics: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/dave+matthews+band/#share

Other videos of Bartender:
-solo
-full band: live/lyrics

Bartender Lyric Meaning

---
alternate version

Storms she come
and storms she go
please give me the wine
that Jesus drunk
to get him up the hill

Bartender please
pour me the wine
that you gave to Christ
to make him rise above
oh Bartender...

And then that means I fall
Bartender please....

And that means I pray
Bartender please....

And if I pray
those hearts are young
give me a second chance to fix it up

if I pray I break
And if I crush
my childrens' hearts
please give me the strength
to fix them, Lord
if I crush

Bartender please
pour me a drink
the one you gave Christ
so that he might get up again
to live

Bartender please
pour me the wine
that you gave to Christ
get him out of the grave
please Bartender, wine...

On bended knees I pray
Bartender please....

Bartender please
on bended knees
God please....

Then he did "The Maker" by St. Daniel Lanois:

--

Q : Who is J?

Q (Quentin Kinnison) preaches on Mark 8:27-38

Untitled from Fresno Pacific University on Vimeo.

Quentin Kinnison - Faculty Profile from Fresno Pacific University on Vimeo.

Thursday, May 26, 2011

missing Jesus, tollbooths, and the temple: the pursuit of the normal

Once, in Solomon's Box, we actually did it via graffiti on one of the church walls (one that was due to be painted, anyway).

Once, in another church location, we did it with colored markers on posterboard.
Photos here, click twice to read and weep...and laugh!:

But most of us do it less officially, and more often,...in prayer, even if unarticulated/wordless.

Complaints/laments/questions have to surface somewhere. So we might as well be honest and elevate them. pray them post them, sing them....prophetically write them on subway walls or church halls.

The

Complaints Choir

movement, let along the psalms of lament,

suggests that an outlet must be found, and can be not only threrapeutic/healing, but evangelistic/missional.

"The "Wake Up Dead Man" prayer (complaint/demand/honesty) is sometimes all we have...
and all we need.

The "where were You?" question-prayer may be unanswerable.
But that we must ask it is unquestionable.
(see "Sixpence and God both sneak a smoke").

The "Where was God at Panda Express?"questions must also be asked aloud..

SO It hit me last night, as Rabbi Adam was talking about the Jewish homesickness for the temple,
that no non-Jewish person can know what that feels like.
As he was speaking to our class, I quickly found and projected this photo of some of us in front of the Temple Mount, and it nearly brought him to tears.
[hhn669508244_1570115_9866.jpg]

.

The rabbi has not yet been to Israel.
(but Israel has been to the rabbi).

He misses a place he's never been.

With one exception, I can only miss places I have been.

I have been all over the middle of the Connecticut Turnpike.

Along with Spidey P. and gang, I was a toll collector for a couple of summers.
Not the most exciting job on the planet, but the memories collected are priceless,
and the ground there was therefore hallowed.
Here we are:

But that toll booth complex no longer exists.
It was torn down, and the whole toll system discontinued years ago.

Which means, on a visit the spot where they were, I once felt I had to reach down and actually feel the pavement where so much of my life once happened.

No words for what I felt.
Not even a song of complaint.

But the words of St. Bruce Cockburn do come to mind as I remember my wordless touch of the pavement prayer:

"Those who know don't have the words to tell
And the ones with the words don't know too well":

Are there any places in your past that are simply...and unforgivably...no longer there?

I realize my stories (and yours) may sound trivial compared to "missing" the Temple and the Shekinah..
but they are our stories, and windows into The Story.
They are overheard stories....and all are hallowed.

Though most of you will laugh when you learn that I am the one on the right in this pic,

...There is no way this photo will not evoke wordlessness and/or tears for my cousin:

That wagon may exist somewhere, but our grandparents home, where this was taken, does not.

That's not fair.

No one asked my permission.

But I do know that:

Every place I have set foot is holy ground.

The Temple Mount included.

St. Jamie, in an amazing blog post found here, even found Jesus in the most "unlikely of places":
church.

-link,

-Holy Hamburgers

For a class I teach adjunct at Fresno Pacific, we orient students to the "three worlds" of the Bible. To illustrate the "historical world" of the Bible, and the crucial insight that places/geography matter big time in Scripture... common memory of places the disciples may have been to in the past, or more notably, not literally been to....Exodus and Exile in Babylon , for example.

As part of my teaching, I take students on a field trip of the campus, to show them MY "historical world," as I was a student there only yesterday; a quarter century ago.

Recently...for the first time in 25 years, I entered our old dorm and stomping ground on this tour: Module E By the Sea. I had stories to tell.

But I was a bit floored when we entered my brother's old dorm, in adjoining Module D.

It wasn't there.

Torn down to make a lounge.

Unkind!

Where was the historical marker here, where my brother and I, and Spidey T. held prayer meetings soundtracked to "Supper's Ready"?

Sacrilige!
They paved paradise to put up a lounge with cable TV?

At least our dorm's holy "phone booth" in the closet (where you see SQ here) was still in tact.............minus the phone.

Don't even get me started on my petition for landmark status for the spot I met Jesus and my wife:
[spnya69508244_1569953_4434.jpg]

And then, walking back to class, i remembered that I couldn't take the "usual route" my memory and feet wanted to...a someone build a building right on top of this sacred amphitheatre, where you see us in 1983:

.

(More photos:

Module E By the Sea 82-85)

\

Back in class, and in real reality,we read from our textbook that :

"There are no sacred places..The altar in a church building is no closer to God's heart than a rest room" (p. 163)

I want to both amen and amend that...when i miss places and people.

I once wrote:

I never planned to be an idolater when I grew up.
And I never became one full-blown until I became a pastor.
Full and explicit confession; I like form too much.
By default we tend to focus on …and thus inevitably worship …forms instead of norms.
Without (literally) divine intervention we wind up unintentionally at (if not autobahnning our way on purpose) our destination:
idolatry of form.
Not our destiny:
the norm, normal and normative Great Commisional lifequest.
“It’s good for us to be here, Lord.”
Uh, oh. Sounds good and spiritual. After all, it is technically a prayer.
And often it would be an appropriate response.
But in this case, it is death.
The well-meaning (?) saint who uttered it was well off the mark.
In fact, he only said it out of his personal ignorance; and the corporate systemic fear of the group/church he was hanging with.
(That's a fascinating assessment of why he misspoke. So hold on to it for a few minutes; it may indeed be the only reason believers ever misspeak and land off the mark,;and thus an incredibly handy hermeneutic for self-diagnosis).Personal ignorance.
Corporate fear.
At least that’s the twofold interpretation of Peter’s “It’s good for us to be here, Lord.” quote/prayer/idolatry of form in Mark 9:6:
"He said this because he (as an individual) did not know what to say; and because they (as a group) were so frightened."
But Jesus seems to show up on Mounts of Transfiguration only to commission-kick us into the demon-infested valleys.
For the next verse (14) and vista after the mountaintop experience was just that.
Pete and the disciples were to apply what they had seen and heard on the glorious mountaintop in the "real world" marketplace. To backtrack and look back would be not only "idolatry of the form" but "to shrink back into destruction" (Hebrews 10:26).
Not to mention missing the fun and form of ministry that awaits any that "tear the curtain down and bring the Altar to the ground." (lyric to the 77s classic bombblast: "What was in That Letter?")God is on the move, out task is to move with the movement.
But I'd rather stay "in church" (a "place" Jesus never commanded us to go), and "build three shrines: one for Jesus, one for Elijah..."
Death.
More often than not, Jesus is subversively moving us into the valley to give away life; to heal demonized kids;
to be missional in the marketplace and not (just on) the Mountain.
But wait, is there no place to just be "in worship?"..as the Scripture says to “Be still and Know that I am the Lord."?
Of course....but in that contract and context of that Quietist comamnd is the activist second half of that same sentence (Isaiah 46:10)...“so that My Name will be evangelized in all the earth."
The only reason God takes us to mountains of glory is to "glorify" the valley.
The real glory, which we seem to want, is not "in the church," but in the world:
"The whole earth (not 'church') is full of his glory."
We can take the mountain and prayer closet with us, you know. They are portable.

continued here :

Idolatry of Form, Worship of Norm: Ignorance, Fear & St. Dogbert Wisdom

I know all that.
And that rabbi admitted that we live in great days, as we the Body are the temple; and the Presence is no longer limited by real estate, bit our real ESTATE (See" My Real Estate Isn't as Big/Sexy as Yours")

But he still grieved.
And I grieve that I don't grieve enough
Do I love or know Jesus?.

There is an classic rabbinic tale from the aggadah, retold in Rabbi Pearl's "Theology in Rabbinic Stories," as "Clothes for the Messiah," (Jer. Ber. Sa; Lamentations Rabbah 1:51). about a Jew being told the Temple had just been destroyed. It turns out that, inevitably, the Messiah is born that same day.

The point being that
Messiah always arises and appears when grief ascends.

And that:

"The proper course of action for the Jew is to continue working--even in the apocalyptic times of the Messiah...Only on that basis could they hope that the tragic national experiences would be overcome and that the Jews would face the future with the courage and determination whuch would eventually bring them to a happier period...the emphasis is on the
pursuit of the normal...-Pearl, p. 150

So I go back to class, and to reality and life in the here and now where I belong,
...trapped in, and blessed with, the struggle, sweat and gift of the "now and not yet;"
praying "on earth as it is in heaven."

One stop on our campus tour reminded that more than places, I miss people,
like Michel Bucci (far right, in this vintage pic in his campus apartment).

He died on the operating table several years ago.

But because he knew Jesus,
and knew that the temple is no longer a where, but Who...

I will see Michel again.

He'll have no wheelchair
(and Dack will not have AIDS)

And I honor his memory by living
Kingdomly now
wherever I am,
whatever and I miss.
And Whoever I miss missing

----------------
PS: Bono misses Jesus here and here,,, as does Chris Martin here.

"What's holy is holy because we touch it, not because we don't touch it!"

More on Godhaunted Chris Cornell

For previous discussion, see:

Church Music at Liquor King

For discussion:

Chris's Spiritual* vibe*

Chris' bands have included Soundgarden and Audioslave.

Interview, which leads up to question about religious belief:

Ave Maria:

Chris w/Soundgarden: "Jesus Christ Pose"- the official video was eventually banned from MTV:

"Slaves and Bulldozers"with "Jesus is my friend" lyric:

"Rise Above": From Song of Ascent to Spiderman, it's still prayer. Ask NT Wright!

"and You say 'Rise above!'
I can´t, I can´t..."

So of Christ calls us to live an ascended life,
how is that prayer a response?
It's just honest.
Something Bono is in favor of (see "Bono audio: God at the 9" Nails Gig".

The biblical psalms of ascent are about ascending to Jerusalem on pilgrimage..but sometimes, some days..
there is descent on the ascent.

Or worse:

N.T. Wright says it best. Our ministry is based on the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus, as the latter is most often ignored in our churches. "What happens when you downplay the ascension?, " Wright asks. "The answer is that the church expands to fill the vacuum" -Mike Erre, "Death by Church," p. 246

Elsewhere in Wright:

And we all too easily suppose that the message is: Jesus is going off to heaven for ever, and one day we’ll go and join him there. And that would be to miss the whole point of the Ascension, here and elsewhere in the New Testament. (link)

It may have been officially decided long ago that the promised "meditative, pilgrimage" U2 album "Songs of Ascent" (see "Bono has been reading Eugene Peterson..again" and "new U2 Song (of Ascent?) 'Sing yourself right off your feet')

would be dropped and absorbed into other projects, especially the less,..uh, spiritual.. and far more infamous.. "Spiderman: Turn off the dark" project.
One theory is "Rise Above" is one of those ascent songs that descended elsewhere. Of course the lyric reads as prayer...Bono himself has said all their lyrics can..

And prayed this way, it's Romans 7-ish..
which will preach
(see "Radiohead on Romans 7," "Pastor Neil Young on Romans 7" and Lou Reed preaches Romans 7)

..but uplifting in a Romans 8ish way...

Note on lyrics: on the 'not them" theme in U2, see the "us vs. them" Jeremiah sneer of Dylan, and
no "them," only "us" and You, too, are us...not them)

Also note: Bono has encouraged us to "Rise Up" before..(see paul and bruce rise up..._

Lyrics:

and You say "Rise above"
Open your eyes up.
and You say "Rise above
I can´t, I can´t...

How long will it take
Before these feelings go away?
How much longer do I wait?
Are there any real answers, anyway?
Silence in a crowded room,
Louder than the loudest tune.
I hang on your every word.

and You say "Rise above"
Open your eyes up.
and You say "Rise above"
I can´t, I can´t...

I miss You in everything,
I was too fast travelling to take You in.
I know silence is no crime,
I just wish I could hear You fill it up one more time.
Yes, I know what You say to me,
Exactly what You say to me,
But I still hang on every word

and You say "Rise above"
Open your eyes up.
and You say "Rise above"
I can´t, I can´t...

In a time of treason
Is there time for trust?
When there´s no "them:
There´s only "us"
When it is time for reason
Has your heart had enough?
Is there time to let go
And rise above?

And you say rise above.
Open your eyes to love.
And you say rise above.
I can´t, I can´t...

Wednesday, May 25, 2011

new U2 video: stats

the new U2 360 pre-show video below scrolls acts from how many abortions today to how many blog posts today.. )
See also "computer voices ask human questions in new liturgy: U2 in Chile")

Foo Fighters for Church

Video by Chaplain Tim Barrett

U2/Linkin Park "With or Without the Shadow of the Day"

Two worship songs that someone has mashed together:

WOWY also works with "Under Pressure":

Tuesday, May 24, 2011

does anyone ever church-hop among underground churches?

"...Speaking to underground church leaders in China was equally enlightening. Most surprising to me was their response when I told them about “church” in America. I did not expect the response I got when I explained how common it is for people to switch churches if they find another with better child-care, better music, or a more gifted speaker. They laughed really hard. It was weird. It was like they thought I was joking. It opened my eyes to the uniqueness of our situation. Remember that India and China combined represent almost 40% of the world’s population. The U.S. represents about 4%. Too often I have looked at other cultures as being strange. I forget that we are the minority.."- Francis Chan, link

Monday, May 23, 2011

Rob bell in hell part 4; NT Wright and John MacArthur weigh in

1)Video from Alter Magazine, NT Wright on hell and Bell (link)

2)John MacArthur responds, click below to read. Amazingly..or inevitably...he says the following without backing it up with a single quote from Bell

"Historic evangelicalism has always affirmed the authority, inerrancy, and sufficiency of Scripture, while declaring (as Jesus and the apostles did) that the only way of salvation for fallen humanity is through the atoning work of Christ, and the only instrument of justification is faith in Jesus Christ as He is revealed in the gospel.
Rob Bell believes none of those things" (link, "Rob Bell: a Brother to Embrace, or a Wolf to Avoid?")

Ok, I won't even bother to point you to MacArthur's new nearly-gnostic book..or this or this.

And I won't say "Farewell, John MacArthur"...but someone should ask him this..

Sunday, May 22, 2011

Two versions of "Jesus"

Which version of Michael Knott's
"Jesus" do you like the best?
>>The first is from his "Fluid" album, and comes in the context of a story; a girl crying out to Jesus from a car crash.. (academic paper: Investigating the Fluid album, by Aaron Taylor). Here the official title is "Tonight"..

>>A bit later the song was greatly rocked up, and lyric-ed up for the "Aunty Bettys" project...studio version and concert video.below.

1)"Tonight" ("Jesus") by Michael Knott (Fluid album)

TONIGHT

Jesus wont you take me in your arms tonight,

Jesus won't you save me from harm tonight?

I didn't know,

I didn't know which road was
wrong,

Which road was right

Jesus wont you save me from this blaming voice tonight,

Jesus wont you forgive me of my losing choice tonight?

Did I know, did I know

Which road was wrong, which road was right?

Did I know which road?

2)Jesus" by Aunt Betty's Ford (Michael Knott)l

Jesus, won't you help me find my way
Won't you send me some money in the mail
Jesus, won't you let me drink one more
It helps me to ignore how much I have failed

I'm gettin' sick
gettin' ill
gettin' tired
gettin' fired
I'm gettin' killed
I'm gettin' chilled
I'm gettin' crazy

I'm gettin' lazy
I'm gettin' screwed
I'm gettin' used
I'm gettin' kicked
I'm gettin' tricked
I'm gettin' out

gettin' out
gettin' out
gettin' out

I'm gettin' ... high
I'm gettin' ... high

Jesus, I could keep my family
if You could just send me some money in the mail
Jesus, I don't mean to complain
but it gets cold, it gets lonely inside a cell

I'm gettin' sick
I'm gettin' ill
I'm gettin' tired
of gettin' fired
I'm gettin' killed
I'm gettin' chilled
I'm gettin' crazy
I'm gettin' lazy
I'm gettin' screwed
I'm gettin' used
I'm gettin' kicked
I'm gettin' tricked
I'm gettin' out
gettin' out
gettin' out
gettin' out

I'm gettin' ... high
I'm gettin' ... high

high, gettin' high
whoa-whoa-whoa
high, gettin' high

I'm gettin' sick
I'm gettin' ill
I'm gettin' tired
I'm gettin' fired
I'm gettin' killed
I'm gettin' chilled
I'm gettin' lazy
I'm gettin' crazy
I'm gettin' screwed
I'm gettin' used
I'm gettin' kicked
I'm gettin' tricked
I'm gettin' out
gettin' out
gettin' out
gettin' out ...

"If God was a single person..he was not love"

C.S. Lewis:
"If God was a single person,
then before the world was made,
he was not love."
-C.S.Lewis, "Mere Christianity," p. 131,,
also cited in Steve Seamands' "Ministry in the Image of God: The Trinitarian Shape of Christian Service," 163, online here

only the Edge gets raptured..

With a song like "Until The End of The World" played last night on May 21 (and Mark and Hosh were there..not jealous!) the supposed end of the world, I thought Bono might say something. He did..and thanks to Beth, who posted this video with this comment: "U2 dedicated UTEOTW to Harold Camping last night. It's really rather poignant. Bono jokes that only Edge would be "taken up in the air," then gives a corrective ALREADY realized eschatology, and then delivers the loudest NOT YET balancing one I've ever heard. Thanks, U2, for reading the whole Bible with your whole brains and your whole bodies." -U2Sermons, link

See the 00- :25 mark and then 3:03ff for the parts she noted:

Saturday, May 21, 2011

Video Juxebox for May 21: Dedicated to Harold Camping

Harold Camping avoids a callers question":http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0COhPSD-D8&feature=related

‎"What will happen to you, Camping , when May 22 proves you are a false prophet?"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMLY4jNM34g&feature=related

Friday, May 20, 2011

Clergy-Matic Ecclesi-Action Center 3:16

The Colbert Report

Mon - Thurs 11:30pm / 10:30c

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Rob Bell in hell part 3: "Rob WHO?" and "what every pastor knows but can't tell about hell"

"Rob who?"

I love when I am speaking to a group, and wanting to set up a Rob Bell video clip, find out that no one has heard of him.

Yes, that still happens. (:

But I still, after the clip, often say something like: "One of the most important things I can say about a Rob Bell clip is 'Don't hear what he's not saying."

Just because he talks for an hour about Revelation and never once mentions the end times doesn't mean he doesn't believe in them. He is just trying to show what most people don't seem to know: that "Revelation was written to real people in a real place and time," and that historical context is crucial.

Then, I often say, "He sometimes talks large, creatively and sweepingly. He may or may not have gotten the details of his physics right ("Everything is Spiritual") or the details regarding Roman emperors perfect (at Willow Creek)
,and he may wrongly import some traditions from later Judaism back into Jesus day ("Dust of the Rabbi,").....but let'd deal with his main point (in the last case, that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, among other things), as it was well-presented, well on-target and and well worthy of discussion..
He helpfully/maddeningly/inevitably/prophetically overemphasizes a point because it has been hugely underemphasized, ignobily ignored or even downright denied.

Or not allowed to even be discussed..."in church."

I lost a Facebook friend because he thought I posted too many blog posts on sexuality.
In response, I posted (in a post about sex):

(Editors note: I am sure some people think I am obsexxed and talk about sex too much on this blog. You need to know that the sexuality/spirituality connection is one..and only one...of six stated categories for this blog...and the one I likely post on least.So sorry if I offend you for the wrong reason, but one of the reasons we are in the mess we are in in church and culture is "You can't talk about sex in church."
Well, as Rob Bell has asked:" where do you WANT to talk about it?"

And just because I am showing a clip of Rob Bell for a retreat, sermon, or class doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with every detail of everything he says...but since when does that have to be the case?? As I post on the sidebar of my blog:

"DUMB DISCLAIMER":It should go without saying...but i wouldn't want it to... that since this blog is a Spiritaneous place to throw out thoughts/feelings/articles "in process," it does not represent any of the fine institutions you see by my profile that I am affiliated with (Heck, it may not even represent me! (:........). The blog is merely an attempt to subvert subversion and"push toward the unobvious"(Thanks, Tim N. for that phrase) on the six hot topics listed at the top of the page....Welcome, engage it, and don't be offended (for the wrong reason, anyway!)

I may not even agree with me, but I am indeed hoping to agree with Jesus.

And allowing conversation and questions to actually happen.

Which takes me to hell.

I mean the topic, not the destiny (:

Bell has said many times recently:

"I believe in heaven and hell"
"I believe in hell now and hell later."

Yet it does feel, in the book, he has made too much of "hell on earth"..The Bible does not ever use the hell terms s as earthly realities. It does however talk much about the kingdom of heaven,...on earth/.
Just read the Lord's prayer, or consider Jesus' core message (Matthew 4:17).
Bell's point is well-taken yet perhaps too provocative for its own good.
Maybe that's subconsciously on purpose..Maybe Bell et al need and bleed controversy

Speaking of..
It is actually amazing that I have not officially yet heard an evangelical officially announce/suggest that Bell is actually hellbound for his hell related "heresy" ("hellesy")... unless that is what John Piper mean by his infamous (and as yet unexplained) "Farewell, Rob Bell" tweet. (Btw, here and here and here are some guesses. Here is a hilarious spoof).

Some come close.

Van Impe (below) does say"God forgive you, Rob Bell,"
...but the two matters in need of forgiveness (Bell "doesn't believe in hell or the Virgin Breath" are both based on misunderstandings

Read the books, or at least hear from Bell's own mouth that he believes in both:

And John McArthur (read Tim's important post , Why I think Rob Bell and John Piper are more similar than not):
)

“The sad reality is that if Rob Bell does not confess the truth in this life, one day he will realize how wrong his understanding of hell really is. His view of hell will be painfully altered forever when he receives the more severe punishment reserved for those who with a Bible in their hands mock God and trample the blood of Christ underfoot.”
http://www.gty.org/Blog/B110421

And one reason why evangelicals can't claim Bell is hellbound is "once saved, always saved" theology. (they could make the case that he is a false prophet and never saved to start with..

But here is one place we all need Bell's book.

Just like I maintain that every pastor knows that the Bible knows absolutely nothing of Christians showing up for a weekly worship service where a pastor preaches a sermon,

or even a church led by a pastor...

.. but we just can't deal with all the changes we'd have to make if we acted on that truth.. (link)

Every pastor knows, but few can admit out loud, that

Rob is also right in his analysis on pp. 80-83 that Jesus talked about Hell to his fellow Jewish believers, and furthermore, he talked about them being in danger of going there because of their bad behavior— like that of the rich man in relationship to Lazarus. Behavior might not get you into the Kingdom, but it sure can get you an early checkout notice from being amongst the elect. This is precisely what Paul is saying in Gal. 5.19-21 when he warns his converts in Galatia that if they persist in behaving badly, in these various listed ways, “you will not inherit God’s kingdom”. Jesus says nothing different from this.
If the so called elect or saved behave consistently or continually in such a way that their lives as a whole could be characterized as a life of adultery etc. they will have committed apostasy, and will not enter God’s coming future kingdom. These warnings are incompatible with an eternal security notion, which neither Jesus nor Paul affirmed. Rob is quite right— it the pious Jews, the truly converted, even the Christians, who are being warned about apostasy in such texts. And it is not like they are the only NT figures giving us believers such warnings—go read Hebrews 6 again. As Rob puts it on pp. 82-83— “whatever chosen-ness or election meant, whatever special standing they believed they had with God was always, only, ever about their being the kind of transformed, generous, loving people through whom God could show the world what God’s love looks like in flesh and blood.” Amen to that. Ben Witherington, Part 3

This leads me to link you the detailed reviews of Bell's hell book by well-respected evangelical scholars/professors: Ben Witherington (just quoted), and Scot McKnight.

They help unpack the issues re: universalism, etc. But perhaps most helpfully, deal with Bell's sometimes sloppy exegesis on his way to making a point.

Here McKnight takes Bell to task, on one of the questions I had upon reading Bell:

In this context he brings up the Greek word kolazo (it should be kolasis since the noun is used in Matthew 25), and Rob says something that must be flagged as unfair. He says kolazo “refers to the pruning and trimming of the branches of a plant so it can flourish” (91), and the noun is combined with aionion (he uses aion) and says this is an “aion of kolazo” or a “period of pruning.” Again, check BDAG [infliction of chastisement, punishment, transcendent retribution, punishment; under kolazo, the verb, penalize, punish ... finishing with "Aristotle's limitation of the term... to disciplinary action ... is not reflected in gener. usage"]. My point: it is simply disingenuous to say without qualification that it means pruning, and it is unfair to readers not to say that most — if not almost all — instances refer to a kind of retributive punishment and chastisement — there is very little emphasis in this word’s usage that suggests punish to improve and much more punish full stop. Here’s the big point: this is about Life and Kolasis/Punishment in The Age to Come. The Age to Come is everlasting. link

Scot McNight's 9-part review is here, and..he wisely begings each post with a prayer
Ben Witherinton's 8-part is here

(You should also check one of my seminary prof's responses, as he did in PhD on hell:
"Go to Hell, Rob Bell? " by Jerry Walls)

Witherington is helpful:

If you were to actually begin reading Love Wins with the very last chapter, you would quickly see why I have said the book deserves to be evaluated primarily as a poetic expression of Rob’s faith. It is not an exercise in detailed exegesis or systematic theology any more than the psalms (songs) should be evaluated as systematic theology. While I agree that the underlying theological assumptions and assertions in this book are fair game for close analysis and critique, you would be missing the point if that is all you do. Love, in the end, will not crawl under a microscope and submit to sterile scientific analysis. Thank goodness. God’s love for all of us of course could hardly be summed up in even all the books in the world.

--
PS: From the evangelical scholars to the but more provocative writers, then.
David Dark, author of is amazing.
His review of Bell is here,
and just the fact that it uses the word
"transpartisan" and quotes Modest Mouse recommend it(:

And finally, for now...Francis Chan on humility and the hell debate:

Dumb disclaimer:

It should go without saying...but i wouldn't want it to... that since this blog is a Spiritaneous place to throw out thoughts/feelings/articles "in process," it does not represent any of the fine institutions you see by my profile that I am affiliated with (Heck, it may not even represent me! (:........). The blog is merely an attempt to subvert subversion and "push toward the unobvious" (Thanks, Tim N. for that phrase) on the six hot topics listed at the top of the page....Welcome, engage it, and don't be offended (for the wrong reason, anyway!)

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